Much of what I wrote (but not the WTS' role I ascribed to possible future teachings of the WTS) in the prior two posts of this topic thread about biblical doctrines are what I had come to believe while I was an independent Christian, including during the two years when I partook of the Memorial emblems (but using freshly squeezed red grape juice instead of red wine) privately in my home with me conducting the memorial event to myself.
Disillusioned JW
JoinedPosts by Disillusioned JW
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Does this look like the WT is going to be around a long time? One Watchtower @ One Awake for the public in 2022
by pistolpete ini keep hearing that the watchtower org is going to be around forever because of the many other religions that have been around a long time.
but i disagree because the wt is not like other religious cults.. the watchtower's breath of life is dependent on the last days that started in 1914. .
you can’t change 1914 without a death blow to the entire organization.. the watchtower's 2nd reason for staying alive, is it's continual urging that the life saving preaching work of warning people is the most important work ever.. but- it's very obvious to many, even the old ones that instead of speeding up the work------the work is slowing down to a drip.. comment by former believer; .
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Disillusioned JW
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Does this look like the WT is going to be around a long time? One Watchtower @ One Awake for the public in 2022
by pistolpete ini keep hearing that the watchtower org is going to be around forever because of the many other religions that have been around a long time.
but i disagree because the wt is not like other religious cults.. the watchtower's breath of life is dependent on the last days that started in 1914. .
you can’t change 1914 without a death blow to the entire organization.. the watchtower's 2nd reason for staying alive, is it's continual urging that the life saving preaching work of warning people is the most important work ever.. but- it's very obvious to many, even the old ones that instead of speeding up the work------the work is slowing down to a drip.. comment by former believer; .
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Disillusioned JW
The WTS also needs to teach that Jesus Christ is not an angel (except possibly in the broad sense as having been at times a messenger of the Father) and that Jesus Christ is not Michael the Archangel. They can further state that in the future Michael will serve under the command of Jesus. If they retain the idea of Revelation 12:7 - 12 being a past event instead of a future one, they can say that in the event described Michael was serving under the command of Jesus.
The WTS can also readopt a portion of Russell's ideas (and of Rutherford's early ideas) of the restoration of Jews to Israel. WTS can say that though the government of the nation of Israel is not a theocracy and thus not being ruled by Jehovah, that Jehovah nonetheless played a role in causing much of the Jewish people to be restored to Israel. They can further say that such is preparatory to opening the minds of many Jews to eventually accepting Jesus as the foretold Messiah. The WTS can say that the two witnesses mentioned in Revelation are not people of WTS' religion in the early 1900s, but rather are people (perhaps Enoch and Moses) who are yet to do what Revelation foretells, and that what is described about them in Revelation are largely meant to be interpreted literally. The WTS can further say that by the future work of those two witnesses, their subsequent literal resurrection and ascension to heaven, and a future earthquake in Jerusalem, many Jews in Jerusalem will become followers of Jesus. They can remind people that Paul in one of his letters said that all Israel will be saved.
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Does this look like the WT is going to be around a long time? One Watchtower @ One Awake for the public in 2022
by pistolpete ini keep hearing that the watchtower org is going to be around forever because of the many other religions that have been around a long time.
but i disagree because the wt is not like other religious cults.. the watchtower's breath of life is dependent on the last days that started in 1914. .
you can’t change 1914 without a death blow to the entire organization.. the watchtower's 2nd reason for staying alive, is it's continual urging that the life saving preaching work of warning people is the most important work ever.. but- it's very obvious to many, even the old ones that instead of speeding up the work------the work is slowing down to a drip.. comment by former believer; .
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Disillusioned JW
I believe the WT can survive if the WT stops teaching that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE, begins teaching Jerusalem was destroyed in 587/586 BCE instead, and if the Watchtower stops teaching that the Gentile Times ended in 1914 CE. Furthermore, I think the WT should make those changes.
The WT could still correctly say that they correctly proclaimed for decades prior to 1914 that the year 1914 would be a time of great trouble - even that by the year 1914 numerous European nations would be fighting themselves in a massive war (I saw a quote of Russell for this but I need to find it to present it as a reference). They can thus still teach that the year 1914 was a huge turning point in human history. They can also still teach much of what they say about 1918 and 1919, including the teaching that the directors of the WTS having been sent into prison and later released and the idea that Jesus Christ selected them. They also have to give up the teaching that Christ is now ruling over the Earth, but doing so could help them since it would allow them to consistently say that the 1,000 year reign of Christ begins in the future when Christ begins his rule as king. They also would have to give up the teaching that the resurrection to heavenly life has begin, and thus they would have to teach that Russell, Rutherford, Knorr, Franz, etc. have not yet gone to heaven. Since the above teachings are interrelated they would have to be introduced in the same issue of the WT so the teachings could be see as being consistent with each other.
The WTS and the JW governing body should start emphasizing that not even they know the day, hour, or even the year or decade in which the great tribulation will begin, nor the year when Armageddon will begin, nor the year when Christ will come in judgement, nor the year when Christ's kingdom of 1,000 years will begin. They can continue to teach that those events are looking increasingly much nearer, as evidenced by world events.
If they make the above changes, along with teaching that the scriptures show that Jesus Christ is in some sense also Jehovah/Yahweh and can thus be worshiped by JW that will make the WTS/JW much more in agreement with the Bible and much more credible to those Christians who are not JW. The changes would also reduce the cognitive dissonance of many JWs. Furthermore, if the WTS were to start teaching that the 144,000 is a symbolic number instead of a literal number, that JWs in good standing are encouraged to partake of the memorial emblems in obedience to Christ, that the other sheep class are gentile believers in Christ (with the little flock class is Jewish believers in Christ, at least in regards to first century CE Jewish believers in Christ), and that those who will rule with Christ for 1,000 years will be on Earth after the 1,000 years (and possibly also during the 1,000 years, though not during the battle of Armageddon), that will also help the WT/JW religion to grow and resolve a number of conflicts in their interpretations of the Bible.
The above is a way out I see for many of the WT's problems if they adopt the views I stated above, but they would also have say (like the religious Jews and others) blood transfusions are OK, they would have to correct their policy pertaining to child abuse cases (including the two witness rule), and they would have to soften their policy of JWs shunning their ex-JW family members who left by disassociation. Doing the latter (regarding disassociated ones) would allow those who secretly disagree with the WTS, namely many of the PIMOs, to leave the WT with a much 'spiritually cleaner' organization - one consisting almost entirely of loyal followers who are also true believers.
If the WT were to make all of the above changes and if hypothetically if I would stop being an atheistic naturalist and to believe in the Bible and Christianity again (changes in my convictions which I don't conceive as being possible) I would might would start being an active JW again, and possibly other ex-JWs would also. But, the WTS would also have to stop being manipulative and stop being highly controlling.
nicolaou, I think it is interesting that you say the following. "jw.org is not the old Watchtower Society. They can discard any doctrine they like now, no-one cares." When I was a believing JW, doctrine (in regards to major ones, not what was minutia to me) was important to me.
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Does this look like the WT is going to be around a long time? One Watchtower @ One Awake for the public in 2022
by pistolpete ini keep hearing that the watchtower org is going to be around forever because of the many other religions that have been around a long time.
but i disagree because the wt is not like other religious cults.. the watchtower's breath of life is dependent on the last days that started in 1914. .
you can’t change 1914 without a death blow to the entire organization.. the watchtower's 2nd reason for staying alive, is it's continual urging that the life saving preaching work of warning people is the most important work ever.. but- it's very obvious to many, even the old ones that instead of speeding up the work------the work is slowing down to a drip.. comment by former believer; .
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Disillusioned JW
Update: Christian Science and the Bible Students movement were started at about the same time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Science says that Eddy began teaching her first student in 1866, that in 1875 she wrote her theology book called Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures, and in April 1879 she and her followers founded her church. Eddy died in 1910.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses says Russell formed a Bible study group in 1870, in 1876 Russell and Barbour jointly produced (another source says published in 1877) the Three Worlds book, and that in July 1879 Russell began publishing Zion's Watch Tower. Russell died in 1917.
The Wikipedia article about Christian Science says the following. 'In 2010 the New York Times reported church leaders as saying that, for over a year, they had been "encouraging members to see a physician if they feel it is necessary", and that they were repositioning Christian Science prayer as a supplement to medical care, rather than a substitute. ... In 2021, a church Committee on Publication reiterated that although vaccination was an individual choice, that the church did not dictate against it, and those who were not vaccinated did not do so because of any "church dogma".'
Similarly, we know that though the WTS for a period of time forbade organ transplants and vaccinations they later said such are a conscience matter. They had also forbade blood fraction for a period of time but later said it is a conscience matter in regards to many blood fractions.
The membership of Christian Science is in decline (at least in the USA, where it like the WTS was founded in) for the Wikipedia article about it says the following. "Christian Science became the fastest growing religion in the United States, with nearly 270,000 members there by 1936, a figure that had declined by 1990 to just over 100,000,[8] and by 2009 reportedly to under 50,000.[3]"
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Does this look like the WT is going to be around a long time? One Watchtower @ One Awake for the public in 2022
by pistolpete ini keep hearing that the watchtower org is going to be around forever because of the many other religions that have been around a long time.
but i disagree because the wt is not like other religious cults.. the watchtower's breath of life is dependent on the last days that started in 1914. .
you can’t change 1914 without a death blow to the entire organization.. the watchtower's 2nd reason for staying alive, is it's continual urging that the life saving preaching work of warning people is the most important work ever.. but- it's very obvious to many, even the old ones that instead of speeding up the work------the work is slowing down to a drip.. comment by former believer; .
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Disillusioned JW
ozziepost, cults can last a very long time. The LDS and the "Christian Science" (so-called) were founded before the JWs and before Russell's Bible Students movement, yet the LDS and Christian Science still exist, and various Bible Students groups still exist. A number of Christians have told me that the Roman Catholic Church is a cult, but that Church has existed for at least about 1700 years (if not even nearly 2000 years). Thus the religion of the WTS/JW, even if truly a cult, can possibly exist in some form (even if reduced to no more than 1000 members) for another 100 years (if humans still exist then).
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Here's a question that I guarantee no one has ever thought of!
by nowwhat? inunlike men who took no note, surely the fallen angels knew of gods plan to flood the earth, so why didn't they build an ark(s) for their nephilum sons?
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Disillusioned JW
Correction: My second to last post instead of saying "...to do foolish things if they are doing bad things to you, do what ever they say proving they aren't telling to break a law ..." should have said "... to do foolish things or even if they are doing bad things to you, the WTS says to do what ever the authorities say to do provided they aren't saying to break a law ...". I had some other typos also but I hope you recognized what I meant despite those.
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Here's a question that I guarantee no one has ever thought of!
by nowwhat? inunlike men who took no note, surely the fallen angels knew of gods plan to flood the earth, so why didn't they build an ark(s) for their nephilum sons?
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Disillusioned JW
The WTS teaches that All Souls' Day, if not not also Halloween, was created by people in honor of their ancestors who died in the flood. But here is the thing. According to the WT the only people to survive the flood were Noah and his family, all who were deemed by LORD Jehovah GOD Almighty to be worthy of saving, and thus if the WTS is correct (hypothetically speaking) there were no ungodly people left to start those pagan holidays to mourn their ancestors who died in the flood!If The WT is correct none of the ancestors of the flood were ancestors of the people LORD Jehovah GOD Almighty destroyed at the flood, unless possibly they were ancestors of Noah's wife and/or the wives of Noah's four sons (since the Bible does not name the immediate ancestors of those women). -
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Here's a question that I guarantee no one has ever thought of!
by nowwhat? inunlike men who took no note, surely the fallen angels knew of gods plan to flood the earth, so why didn't they build an ark(s) for their nephilum sons?
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Disillusioned JW
Yesterday I was telling a co-worker that though being obedient often has many benefits, it is over rated. I mention that the WTS stresses obedience, obedience, obedience! They stress obedience to the GB and the WTS, to one's labor union (if any) at work, to one's governments (including not even participating in protest marches against injustices by one's government(s) and including not speaking out against one's government or governments), to one's employer (including not starting a labor union at work), to ones husband (in the case of married women), and to one's parents.I told my co-worker that our nation (the USA) was founded by being rebellious towards an unjust ruler (the one who was the king of England at the time).
To the WTS it doesn't matter if any of ones authority figures are in error and requiring one to do foolish things if they are doing bad things to you, do what ever they say proving they aren't telling to break a law of Jehovah (as defined by the GB and WTS)! That teaching of the WTS is wrong and it annoys me greatly!
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1914- responsible for the biggest decrease in JW's?
by joey jojo intheres a couple of threads re: 1914 on the board right now and it got me thinking.. the jw doctrine of the 1914 generation is a key doctrine , yet it is probably the number one reason most have left over the decades.. 1975- within one generation.. 1995 - new understanding of the word generation.. 2010- overlapping generation first mentioned- some anointed survive armageddon.. 2015- infamous overlapping generations chart featuring david splane.. its obvious the org is changing the goalposts and constantly trying to squeeze as much time as they can before they have to abandon this altogether.
or will they come up with something new?.
does anyone else think this ever changing doctrine is responsible for the biggest loss of members?.
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Disillusioned JW
Blondie, I think the JW got the idea (whether directly or indirectly) from some of Russell's literature. That is because I think I read in Russell's literature that the term "day and the hour" doesn't mean that Christians couldn't learn the year (and the season and the month). I think that Russell might have also written that while Jesus and others didn't know the time (or even the year) when Jesus spoke the words in the 1st century AD/B.C.E, people in Russell's day could learn it because Jehovah provided inspiration/insight then.
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Pimo's walking out
by Foolednomore inis it possible that jw's would get so worn out by watchtower 's bullshit that they would stand up gather their stuff and walk out of a meeting or a convention.
i can see a small number doing it..
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Disillusioned JW
Sea Breeze, that terminology you used is very informative. I wish I had thought of it that way when I was a baptized JW, and especially prior to being baptized. The JW people telling me thought-stopping cliche's were in effect trying to get me to stop thinking about the matters, even if they didn't realize that is what they were doing. In turn they learned those expressions, and the idea that one should use such, from reading the WT's literature. That is one more insidious way the WT manipulated me! Drats! If JW people hadn't spoken that way to me (though it probably happened only a few times) and if the WTS literature hadn't instructed people that way (something they did more often) I probably would have thought about the matters more and possibly left sooner or never got baptized as a JW.
Folks, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought-terminating_clich%C3%A9 for more information. One example it gives is "Stop thinking so much." The people saying such might mean well, but in some situations it would be beneficial to think more about what one was thinking about at the time. But ending a certain line of thought is not always a bad thing to do, it depends on the reason for doing so.
I wish that some make a list of the statements in WTS literature which are used by the WTS to manipulate people, including examples of use of thought-stopping cliche's. Listing numerous instances of such would help me and others to see not just the types used but also the frequency of the usage.